Five Good Ideas on surviving succession: How to guide a founder-led non-profit into its next chapter

Most succession plans skip the hardest part: the human side. Founder transitions aren’t just strategic; they’re emotional, complicated, and deeply personal. In this session, Annie Kidder, one of the founders of People for Education and recently retired, offers a founder’s-eye view of what really happens during succession – what works, what hurts, what to let go of, and how to steer a founder-led organization into a future where it can continue to thrive.

Session handout

Five Good Ideas 

1. Get a therapist 

2. Identify foundational organizational values and beliefs and then build a new path forward 

3. Determine where the founder adds value and where they have to get out of the way 

4. Let go 

5. Celebrate 

Resources 

• Imagine Canada: Good governance and leadership in founder-led organizations
• Claire Forster: Five Good Ideas for making organizational change work 
• Charity Village: When it’s time for founders to exit 
• Ivy Exec: How to leave gracefully when you’re the face of the company 
• The Bridgespan Group: 10 things departing nonprofit CEOs should do to manage their exits 

Transcript

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.

Elizabeth: There are lots of articles and books and theories about the right way to do succession. They will no doubt provide you with interesting and important insights, but they might not capture your own situation, especially when you’re leaving an organization that you founded. Our guest speaker, Annie Kidder, is going to tell you that they will likely leave out the most critical component: the human factor.

A founder-led transition is emotional. It’s complicated, and it’s deeply personal. Annie was a co-founder of People for Education and served as its executive director for almost 30 years, proving herself a passionate and effective leader and advocate for public education as a foundation of a fair and prosperous society. Her work has left an incredible and indelible mark on public education in Ontario, and so there is lots and lots to feel attached to and close to, and recognize as incredibly important.

It has been my pleasure to have been a colleague and friend for the last decade of that journey. In fact, it may have been shortly after we first met that Annie first started thinking out loud about succession. Now she has recently retired, and she has agreed to share what she has learned about what really makes succession happen.

Annie, welcome and thank you for being here. Thank you for agreeing to have this conversation with us. And over to you.

Annie: Thank you very, very much. And thank you for the introduction. And I think my first proviso in this is that I’m not an expert on succession planning or organizational theory, and I haven’t studied this extensively. I can only talk about my own experience.

So if any of you are researchers, you can think of this presentation as using the kind of n of one, it and just to provide a little bit of context. Elizabeth already has.

In 1996, so, yes, 30 years ago, along with a group of incredibly passionate advocates, I helped to found what became eventually People for Education, which is a non-profit organization based on passionate belief in public education as a core component of civil society, and our best public asset for ensuring that all children and young people have a chance for success.

And we have said about our work over the years that our goals were twofold. First, that every student can graduate with an equitable chance – and equity is a really important part of this – an equitable chance to lead a happy, healthy, economically secure, civically engaged life. And second, that public education was recognized as a key component for meeting Canada’s social and economic goals.

And over the years, People for Education grew from a kind of small, ad hoc group of concerned citizens to a recognized, evidence-based organization with the capacity to drive a big public conversation about public education. And the public part of this is really important because it really affects then succession planning. I became the leader of the organization that I helped to found.

And again, importantly for this conversation, not just the leader, but the very, very public spokesperson, which is something that can really add to the complexity of moving an organization beyond the founder.

So again, I’m not an expert in organizational change or succession planning. But the experience that I’ve gone through over these last few years – and it’s so great, Liz, that you say it started ten years ago, because that’s probably true – the experience I’ve gone through has been huge. I learned a lot, and I think from that learning, there are things that I can offer, I hope, that  are a kind of help to others on this, potential pathway. So this leads me to a good idea.

Number one, get a therapist. As Elizabeth just said, what gets left out of all the kind of helpful resources – mostly gets left out – is how intensely personal this experience is.

As a founder, the organization becomes part of your actual identity. Sometimes people don’t even know the name of the organization, just your name. So the process then evokes lots of feelings, and it’s very hard and very important to be aware of those feelings, to acknowledge them, validate them, try to stay, you know, self-aware as you’re managing the transition.

And I personally think it’s nearly impossible to do this without help. A therapist is there for you, doesn’t judge you, and helps you live through the ups and downs of which there are many, of the process, all the feelings of,  I don’t know what I’m doing, or now everybody’s going to discover how messy all the things are, all the messy things I didn’t take care of. I’m failing. I’m getting really angry. I’m too sad. If only I’d set things up better, this wouldn’t be so hard. All of the stuff that goes into trying to do things right and staying aware of that emotional journey, and having a person that you can check in with regularly, helps to stop you from a lot of important things.

It stops you from just acting out. It stops you from, or helps to, you know, slow down making any big decisions that are just based on big feelings rather than logic or strategy. And it adds to your capacity for a bit of self-compassion as you navigate this big, hard transition. Because, again, as a founder, and especially if you’ve been a founder that has been doing it for 30 years, the organization becomes part of who you actually are.

So to me, that’s the first, hopefully good idea. And then after that, there are some more practical ideas. And I struggled a little bit with what order these hopefully good ideas should go in, but I think that the next one, good idea number two, is remind yourself and your team about the organization’s core values and then work together on building a new path forward.

And the new is very important here, I think, as an organization whose identity is so interconnected or seemingly inseparable from its founder, an organization like that requires a new plan or a real evolution for it to be sustainable in the long term. And survive succession. I don’t think it works to simply replace the leader. You can’t go, “Everything’s good. The organization is going to be exactly the same. There’s just going to be a new person leading it.”

When you have something that’s so identified with the founder, I think I feel pretty sure you have to work together to imagine a new path that requires new kinds of leadership, and those leaders will then be identified with that new path.

There is really a lot embedded in this step. First, it involves bringing in outside advisors – like Elizabeth McIsaac, who definitely was one of them – who know the organization and respect its work, who believe in the foundational values, who understand, you know, how the organization began and why it began and can help you understand the risks and rewards of letting go of some of the work , and they can help you lay the groundwork for organizational evolution. So you definitely need some old friends.

It’s important to understand that potentially you’re going to have to make some painful decisions about staff changes, letting people go so that you can focus on doing the work necessary to build the new path. That part is very hard in this process.

The staff changes also involve giving more or different responsibilities to current staff, and – this is a big step – hiring new staff with the capacity to take on leadership roles. This step should involve the board and all those outside advisors I talked about before, because you’re hiring for a new vision that’s going to require new skills, and then it’s back to the core values articulating with the renewed team, the core values, and beliefs of the organization.

And you can do that by doing things like talking about the founding, telling the story of the organization and through the story, identifying what values and beliefs you think should remain kind of sticky. And once you’ve established agreement on those core beliefs, part of your job – and this is, again, I’m only speaking from the perspective of a founder – part of your job, while the new plan is being fleshed out, becomes, and this part is not fun, and you’re not always right, and your thoughts are not always welcome – part of your job becomes being a kind of warning light when you think the new plan is straying too far from core beliefs. So people talk about mission drift. Whatever you do, have a role to play in terms of trying to make sure there’s a kind of foundation to the organization.

And again, but the problem with that is sometimes you’re wrong. So you’re always having to go back and juggle a little bit and really examine, what you’re having a hard time letting go of is just an emotional thing, or is this a real thing that you think is important to the organization? Again, this is when having a therapist helps. And I really mean that part.

I should insert here, which Elizabeth kind of, alluded to, this process, this part of the process where we actually kind of began moving from staff changes through the process of articulating the new pathway to my actual retirement, took a year, and lots and lots of work was done before that in terms of working with outside advisors, thinking about the potential, the evolution of the organization.

And I should also reiterate that this part was not always easy, but it was vital letting others in and understanding that for a founder-led organization that has become kind of synonymous with its leader, to survive succession, the organization has to fundamentally change. I really believe this now.

And part of it came from you, Elizabeth. I was struck by this in a conversation with you at our first summit. We had a big public summit to launch the Education Promise, which is People for Education’s new, all-encompassing work. It was a fabulous event. Bob Rae spoke and talked about the importance of the work that was going to be done for the future of Canada. Paris Semansky and Kate Hagerman were introduced as the new leaders. And you, Elizabeth, talked to me about how cool it was that the organization was reinventing itself.

And you pointed out that this might be a key component of a successful succession plan. So I have really taken that to heart.

Third good idea: Work on the new work and then get out of the way. This step is hard. I’m think I’m going to describe all the steps as hard. But again, vital. It’s really helpful to find very specific, concrete jobs that you can do that are going to be helpful to the new work, but then recognize boundaries and step aside.

So it’s important then to really think about where your value is. For example, be an introducer. Provide the team with access to the networks you built over the many, many years, and communicate your confidence in the new plans to all those old partners. Sometimes we don’t even know how many people we’ve ended up knowing and making connections with over all those years. But it’s really important reaching out to them, making those introductions and letting them know you think this work is going to be great going forward.

Funding is also incredibly important here, obviously, to any of you who run non-profits. As a founder, you could play a vital role with funders in kind of building their confidence in the evolving organization. You can help to secure some multi-year funding, which we did before the real succession process started for that last year. Secure, multi-year funding to support the transition. You can talk to long-term funders about how the ongoing organization is changing and why, and you can make sure that any new funding proposals are focused on supporting that new work.

And there are funders who are willing to fund transitions themselves. So it’s really important then to be part of that outreach to funders. In this step, it’s also really important to resist the temptation to look for funding to support old work, because it’s part of moving on.

The next idea is really a continuation from number three, and it’s also very hard. Let go. You not only have to get out of the way and figure out what are the really helpful things I can do. You have to let go. And this, again, is where having a therapist helps. Because you have to recognize the boundaries between the personal and the professional, and you have to be willing to understand that some parts of this process are actually going to affect your mental health.

They’re going to make you feel messed up, because they involve a lot of feelings. So recognizing when and how you have to let go is hard. I am very stubborn. As some of you may know, many have called me a control freak. So sometimes to me, letting go felt like giving up or like failure. For example, there were projects that we were working on together where I really struggled with how I could be effective or helpful.

Or maybe, most importantly, I struggled with giving up control, and I had to hit this incredibly hard moment where I had to admit that this was the time to stop going to meetings about some part of the work and just let it go. I feel like the theme from Frozen should be playing in the background here. Because you have to recognize how attached you are to your own preconceived ideas of what the organization is, and then you have to really consciously work on letting go.

You have to acknowledge and even celebrate, which I’ll get to in a minute, that there comes a time when the old guard needs to get out of the way, and that new generations, new ideas, and new modes of working are not just needed, but they might also be better. There were definitely, for me, some, “Okay, Boomer”-moments in this part of the process. So this idea, this step is also very hard.

And, last but not least, in the ideas, and this really came from the new leadership. Not for me, but it’s vital for so many reasons. So the last idea is celebrate. Be willing to celebrate the big step. If you can have a public celebration, do that. But at the very minimum, celebrate the change in social media, in newsletters, in the traditional media. Get stories in the paper, talk about it on the radio, everywhere you can. Make the change public and make it positive. Articulate why it’s so exciting, why it’s groundbreaking, why it’s so important to celebrate the change.

You can use the change as a fundraiser, which we definitely did. You can raise money in the founder’s name, which we did. In the name of the new work, and you can use the celebration as a way to bring in new potential funders and sponsors.

And I talked before about networks, but building new networks and bringing in new partners is essential for long term success. And celebrating the change is a perfect opportunity to bring those new players into the work. It’s really important, I think, for the founder to be part of launching the organization into its new iteration and part of that celebration. It’s a really important kind of vote of confidence and provides a little bit more support for the transition. But again, it’s important to be there to celebrate and then it’s time to move out of the way.

So those are the five hopefully good and hopefully helpful ideas. And in the spirit of this being a webinar based only on my experience, I don’t really know a lot about what happens next. I do know one thing though. So and it’s been like three months since, the official end of my leadership at People for Education. I do know that I have discovered that despite the interconnectedness between me and the organization, it turns out I’m still here. I still care passionately about many of the same things.

I still want to make a difference. I still want to be part of work that’s involved with, you know, that’s going to change the world, just not as the ED of a non-profit. So if you like Elizabeth, I can come back any year and present you with five good ideas for how to keep your hand in after retirement, but also have time to read good books, travel, and put all your photos in albums.

Many of you sent in fabulous and hard questions, and I think Elizabeth is going to get some of them, but I hope this answered some of them, and I would be happy to try and answer more. So over to you, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: There’s so much there. Thank you, Annie. It was such an honest and humble sharing of what has been a really deeply personal process for you. And I appreciate your willingness to come and share this and in a public way.

It was funny when on your last point about celebrating and taking it out to public and social media, the introvert in me recoiled. And then I immediately, as you continued, it’s not about you, it’s about the organization, and setting it on its course for that next chapter, with its new focus, its new, renewed goals. I don’t think the goals are really changing; they’re just recast, with the new leadership at the helm. So, really exciting.

Questions coming in. A lot of them want to get into what it actually felt like to do some of this. And so I want to get into some of that.

Before I do that, I want to just get your reaction to … Because as you were talking, I was thinking about this. I can picture you and four or five staff at People for Education and your board chair and some of your board members and committees. Some organizations, some people are founders, and they’re actually sitting in an organization with 30 people or with 50 people.

And it’s a little bit of a different scale. Question: do you think this really changes with scale or because it’s so personal? As the founder, or I would also argue, any executive director of 30 years in one place has that attachment, that control thing going on. And I say that as only having been at the helm at Maytree for 11 now, I feel that. So do you think your comments are transferable to those larger or non-founder experiences.

Annie: Well, I think that they are, especially because I was doing them from the point of view of a founder. So I imagine that whether you’re running a big organization or a small one and that as the founder, it’s … and also there are all the things you read about founders and all those problems. Those are also truly the controlling, meddling, micromanaging, you know, the things you have to guard against.

I think there are always huge feelings involved, and I care really a lot about the sort of human part of, navigating anything. So I think that even if it’s a big organization now, you can’t go and, you know, sob on your board and tell them all about your therapy.

But it is important, I think, as an individual, that you keep track of what’s going on because then you can actually have really important discussions with your board, with outside advisors and with the staff, new and old. But then you’ve done part of the work to yourself. Like outside of that, but it helps you clarify.

I think it’s really helpful to get clear in yourself. And that’s why I felt it was really important. And you’re right, it’s renewing the goals. But that you had to kind of go, oh these are the goals I think that are there for the organization. And then being willing to really think about what the organization could let go of in a healthy way and how you could move forward.

But I think that it would be true, big or small. I think that.

Elizabeth: I agree. An important cast member in all of this is the board. And there’s one question around, thoughts about handling a change in the ED at the same time as the board chair is leaving. But even if that’s not happening, I wonder if – so, think about that question.

But before that, if you could talk a bit about what your process was with your board, with your whole board, with your board chair, because I’m assuming you didn’t do this in isolation. And so what was their role to play in this?

Annie: Well, they had they definitely had a huge role in hiring new people. They had a big role in the initial … the strategic planning that happened, before the specific succession planning process started. So they – the board and boards change also, and evolve – had a big role in thinking through what is People for Education doing and what is the organization doing next? How is it evolving?

So that was part of the beginning. One of the things I read about succession planning went, name your date and stick to it. That’s really, really, really hard. And with the board, it was important to say this is when this is going to happen, that it moved a little bit, but it didn’t because I started telling the board that I was going to retire at a certain age. I did not. I still took two years after that.

So working with the board was important. But again, as you said, boards change. So part of the evolutionary process too, was then supporting the board and bringing on new board members who would be there beyond me leaving, because one of the issues with founder-led organizations can be – and People for Education’s board really evolved beyond this – but at the beginning, often the founder runs the board too. Like it’s the opposite of where it should be. You know, the founder forgets the board’s my boss. I do what the board says. So I think that that transition started to happen. I don’t know, but, you know, a quite a few years ago, but then it was important to bring new people onto the board who were there, for the renewed vision and renewed goals because it’s hard.

And there were moments with the board like, well, I like the old us, and I just want us to stick with being the old us. And it’s like, well, we’re not going to. So, you know, something has to change there. So some board members left, not in a snit or anything, but it was important that that was part of the renewal too, if that answers your question.

Elizabeth: It does. In that same vein, sometimes where there hasn’t been perhaps as engaged a process as you’ve described, some organizations will engage an interim executive director when the timeline has been set and perhaps the answers haven’t emerged in time or just as a break to sort of break things up.

What are your thoughts on that? And is that an option that you ever considered as part of this?

Annie: I think that. I think it goes back to … if the problem or the challenge you’re dealing with is about a founder-led organization and you’re already in a process of going, “What is the evolution in the work?” bringing in an interim ED, it might work, but it’s not going to help you with the founder issue.

In a way, it’s sort of saying somebody can kind of manage operationally for a little while while we figure out the next step. And that’s why, even though, again, that has many ups and downs, I think that bringing in the new leaders. So they were there a year before I officially left. And again, even though that’s sometimes very hard, they will tell you how hard it is.

But, I think that that actually works better rather than the idea that and once it maybe it’s with an organization like ours that we were we’re not delivering services when we weren’t delivering programs. So there was no work that strictly had to continue because there were clients that had to be served or anything like that.

So I think in this case, in this founder-led case where a lot of the work was research, putting out reports, advocacy, that I don’t think it would have worked for us, but I can see how it would work for a different kind of organization –

Elizabeth: – and different circumstances. Like if there’s a drop dead date.

Annie: Oh, yeah. There’s the hit … Get-hit-by-a-bus scenario.

Elizabeth: But so one of the questions was, is there an ideal overlap time. So you had a 12-month transition. I think yours was kind of unique because you engage them in the revisioning and the, the recasting and, and all of that sort of strategic part.

Where did you begin to define the new leadership role when they came on? Did they know that this is what was going to happen to them? And I say, what happened to that?

Annie: Even when I was doing this, I thought, did they know that I know, and did I know? Not really.  We knew in the hard part of this transition that if we were going to start doing this new work, that was like implicit as part of succession, that actually some people were going to have to stop working there. So we had to kind of shrink in order to, and that was incredibly hard. So that was that was a first hard step.

 And that was a whole year before, when the new leaders came in and one of them had been working, Kate Hagerman, at the working with People for Education for years before, it wasn’t clear. It was the three of us together who slowly came to, okay, this is what’s going to happen. This is when I’m going to retire. And that part’s really scary and hard, naming the actual date, and then figuring out how that transition was going to work. So there was a lot of discussion, negotiation, sometimes struggle. Sometimes for me, that was when I had to go, “I actually can’t be part of this work anymore because I just want to interfere way too much. And I’m not being helpful.” But no, when we when we hired, I think I could say Paris because, you know, who’s their co-leader of the organization? We didn’t say to her we’re hiring you, so that you can take on leadership.

In fact, we hired her to be the director of systems change because we stole the title from Maytree. Because we loved the idea. And they still are. You know, systems change is still at the core of the work, and they’re still doing that work, but no, and that’s where it goes back to, I’m not an expert because I have read a lot about succession planning.

So we didn’t follow a kind of step-by-step-by-step, “These are the rules of succession planning. And here’s how you get there.” Some of it was messy.

Elizabeth: It’s going to be. It’s people. It’s human. It’s a human project.

You talked about one of the things that you can do as the outgoing founder is to introduce the new leadership to your relationships, to make those relationships theirs, or at least they have access to them.

And you also mentioned the important thing of funders and retaining some of the funders or moving the funders to the new vision. So there’s a question around how do you do that artfully, and build confidence in the new leaders with the donors? Are there any tips that you, at the end of having just done this, want to share?

Annie: I think, yes. So first of all, I found funders incredibly … They were great about this. There were a couple of funders that I went to and went, “Help! We just need some funding for this transition time.” Two different funders. And they were willing to do that as long as it, you know, felt as if we had a plan and we were going to work through it.

So that was really interesting to me that you didn’t have to have this big project plan with it, you know? It’s like, “This organization is important. It should exist. Will you help us continue to exist?” And the funders knew that there was a founder issue. Like they asked, so, you know, … There were some big funders who were we were asking for this before the sort of process started for multi-year funding.

And they went, “But you’re the founder. Have you figured out succession planning?” So we had to go, “Yes, this is part of what we’re doing.” So they weren’t surprised. They didn’t suddenly hear, “Oh, god, somebody else is running the organization,” and some of them were part of helping think about it. So to me, first of all, was funders.

It’s really important that you – and sometimes People for Education wasn’t that good at it – that you keep it a relationship, that you keep going back to them and going, this is what we’re doing now. What do you think? Do you have any advice? Because they do have advice. And they are also human. So they don’t mind that you don’t have it all figured out.

But it was really important with funders. Again, because you’re so connected to the organization. It’s that vote of confidence. So that funder part was important.

And trying to set things up so that there were some multi-year funding. So you weren’t going bye bye. Good luck getting money and just leaving it that way. Even though getting money, as anybody who runs a nonprofit knows, it’s always very, very hard in terms of the other part, the kind of network I don’t think I realized I’m not a like, conscious, network building person.

I feel like there’s a generational saying that old baby boomers don’t think of it that way. So I don’t even think I understood that I had a network, or that there were really a lot of them, or the importance of the fact that because I’ve been doing this for so long, if I ask people to do things, they mostly always said, yes, you know, that people knew who I was and they had confidence in me.

So recognizing that, first of all, going, oh, I actually know a lot of people and I know a lot of people across Canada doing a lot of different things, and they kind of think our this organization is, is good and that, that I’m okay. You have to recognize that first and then the introducing was very, very important.

And it was really important to go, “These are the people that are taking over. They’re fantastic. They have tons of other experience. They’re going to take this organization in a new direction.” Because part of the new direction was working with people in other sectors and working across the country. So it was really important to facilitate that, do a little matchmaking, set that up in that way.

They also brought in their own whole networks too, which added to it.

Elizabeth: But very deliberate. Very intentional.

Annie: It was.

Elizabeth: I also just want to go back to your point around with the funders, and I think you have understated your, and I think we have to have you back to [do] a four or five good ideas on relationship management with funders.

You are particularly skilled at building relationship with funders. It’s not transactional. You don’t get a proposal and get the money out, cash the cheque and move on to the deliverables and come back in three years. As someone who funded you for part of your journey, I always understood where you were. I knew what was going wrong.

I knew what was going sideways. I knew where there were successes. You kept me part of the action. And so you build a relationship. And that’s where the trust comes from. And so it’s that deep relationship that you have fostered with those who have invested in your idea. And that’s what I think is a big marker of the difference.

And so that makes a difference when you’re saying, by the way, this is the next gen of this, this is the next iteration of People for Education. And it’s going to be bigger and better. And you got to stick with it because this is where it’s going.

Annie: And also I think the other part that’s really hard to even remind yourself of is that it’s a – and I would like to say you’re an example of a fabulous funder. So, you know, you made that –

Elizabeth: We’re not supposed to do that here today.

Annie: Well, because the thing is, is that having that relationship funders can be really, really helpful. The other part of it is that it’s a long, slow process. So one bunch of multi-year funding that we got took five years to get. Five years of going back and going, “Hey, I think you know, you’re a – they’re a big bank – you’re doing all this other work. We think this is a perfect fit.” “Hi. It’s me again. This part of this work would fit perfectly with that.”

So there were many, many conversations, a lot of building, again, building that relationship. And hopefully then it provides a strong enough foundation that it can continue.

But it’s an incredibly important part of this work. And it’s the part that, you know, sometimes you complain about a lot and gets exhausting, but it’s actually just part of the … it’s part of the job and part of what makes the work possible. But yeah, you’re right. You have to see it as a human relationship.

Elizabeth: All the difference. So someone in the session says that they’ve been trying to step aside for some time. But there’s always an organizational-type emergency that scuttles the plan. Do they forge ahead or is there just never a good time?

Annie: And also, is there always a reason why you shouldn’t do it? Like, again, this goes back to, is it you? Are you always finding reasons that you can’t go or does it, you know, is it really an emergency? And that’s where I think it’s interconnected with the organizational renewal.

So it’s like we’re doing new stuff. And also you have to … It’s really, really hard because I saw one of the questions was, you know, how do you know? And it’s … And I feel like I said many years before I’m going to do this at this time. And then it got to be that time. And I was like, Holy shit, excuse my language. Do I really have to do this now? And sometimes it’s like, I don’t know why I’m doing this. I’m very happy that I did it.

I think you can end up keeping on making up excuses not to leave. There’s always going to be an emergency. There’s always going to be something urgent. And that’s why I do think it’s important to try and think of this as a long term thing, where you’re building other people’s capacity to keep the organization going.

And I, again, not an expert, there’s really good resources out there about how to do this. And that’s I think that the transition is a good idea. Again, not easy, but I think it kind of works to bring people in and go, okay, now we’re going to build a sort of slow handover.

But it’s a really personal decision to go, okay. You know, now I did keep telling the board, I’m going to do this, but I’m really going to do it. I’m really going to do it next year. And there were moments like even once it was already decided, you know, it’s like, just stay for one more year.

It’s like, no, we can’t, you know, we can’t keep doing that. So again, hard. Personal. Get a therapist. That’s going to be my answer to everything.

Elizabeth: So I’m going to ask you a question you may not have it an easy answer to, but it’s what role should you have had in this process? So there there’s the sort of conventional wisdom is that it is the board’s job to do succession planning.

That is their job. They assess and evaluate and oversee the ED. You’ve described a very different kind of process where you’ve put in place the answer. I think that you sort of convinced the board that this was the answer they should be coming along with, and there’s also some unique challenges.

I would say that People for Education was unique in that it was so wrapped up in Annie Kidder. Your personality was very much synonymous with People for Education. And so  there was a really thoughtful process that had to go into, How do you replace Annie? You’re not going to replace any. There is not another Annie.

And so you went across generations, you went and reached to another demographic. You sort of went through a long process. I don’t know that it was painful. Probably, as you’ve described, painful in parts, but a different type.

So maybe just talk a little bit about that. The conventional wisdom that the ED shouldn’t have any role in the succession planning and picking. Some role, but not in the picking. Tell me some of your thoughts on that.

Annie: So I think that if it were a different kind of organization that didn’t have either me or the synonymous issue, and if I hadn’t been a founder and been there for the whole 30 years, I think that the board could have taken control of the process more. Because it the organization maybe would have had, like, four EDs. It would have gone through various transitions over time.

Now, this is not to say that the board wasn’t part of the process. They were. But again, board people change, but they were part of the process of thinking about the organization. And then they were definitely part of the process, picking new staff. So the new leaders. So we advertised for director of systems. No, first of all, we went through this process of going, I think we’re going to have to let some people go.

I did talk to the board about that. Boards really want you to succeed. So they’re mostly quite nice and want you to feel okay about what you’re doing. And sometimes board, some board members have really great business experience and that really helps. So asking your board for help, again, really an important part of this.

And you don’t have to ask the whole board. You can go, that guy on the board knows really a lot about this. I’m just going to phone him and go, how do I do this part? And they want to help, the board. Then we put out an ad for a director of systems change.

Many people applied. So, there was a first kind of cull – is too terrible a word to use? – that happened with me. And internally, it’s like, you know, talking to people on the phone, trying to figure out if this will work. No, no, no, no. Then it got down to a short list.

Then we had an outside committee. Some of them are people who had been staff with People for Education before. I can’t remember how many people, two board members, two people from outside who actually did interviews, wrote down all their thoughts and then gave advice about what they thought should happen, and then the final decision was with me. Who knows whether that’s right or wrong? Or I made a final decision and I wrote them going this … But this is what I think that we should do. And they went, okay, fine.

Then there was a really important process of the board working with those new leaders, talking to the new leaders, figuring out how the transition process was going to happen. So it was different. And I think in other cases boards could run it.

And I think in this kind of founder-led organization that was so attached to the personality of the founder, it would have been hard, but not impossible for the board to do it. And, you know, who knows, maybe it’s part of my controlling, whatever  … need to run everything. Could have had a bit of that in that, too.

Elizabeth: I think there’s a common thread among executive directors in the sector. We all have a bit of a control thing about us, for better or for worse. So this is the next question is going to be a little tricky because you’re just, as you say, you’re three months, you’re at the three month mark, so you’re still getting used to, taking your time in the morning, having your coffee, reading the paper, checking on your plants. I don’t know what your morning looks like. Probably it’s much busier than that.

After formally stepping aside, is it helpful or is it a hindrance to the transition to the people who are there when there is a lesser involved … particularly when there’s a lesser involved capacity. So is a hard departure date and a full, “I’m gone,” the right way to go, give everybody breathing room to do what they’re going to do. You talked about – nose out of the everyday, but a helpful hand. Those are ambiguous boundaries. I suspect you’re finding your way through that. Maybe some early reflections. As you say. You’ll have a better five good ideas 12 months from now. But in the early days, how are those boundaries being shaped by you and by Paris and Kate?

Annie: It’s a very good question. And also not that easy. So I am still doing one piece of work for People for Education. As a consultant, I’m supporting. We have this new annual Canadian school survey. So I’m supporting that work and I’m trying really hard – and Kate and Paris could tell you when I’m successful and when I’m not – to understand that my role is to be a consultant, to facilitate, to, you know, keep the plan on track, ask the right questions.

And I think my role isn’t to … either to run it or tell anybody this is what you should be doing. This part is really hard because you do sit there and have opinions about things. But I think … But this is for me this is a particular – again, n of one –  I don’t think that it would have been helpful for me.

Because some people suggested it is. And you go on the board or then you stay there as a kind of advisor. I don’t think that would have been helpful. And maybe it is because I’m too controlling, but also I’m a voice from the past in a way. And I did all that work for a year, going, “I really think you have to stick to this part.”

And I’m already out there talking to people about, “Cool. Can I be involved in this little project or whatever that other people are doing?” But I think that for me, and maybe it is because part of my role was so public, that it’s really important to get out of the way so that Kate and Paris are seen as they are People for Education.

And if I were still there, kind of hanging over, I don’t think it would be helpful. And I think it is part of … It’s part of letting go. So I’m trying to navigate this funny world because I am still doing a piece of work, but it’s very concrete.

I’m trying to really just stick to the concreteness of that and go, this is why I’m helping a project. It’s a discrete, separate project. I can help this work for as long as possible. But I don’t think it would have been helpful or a good idea for me to stay there in another capacity.

I know there are. I know another, you know, big, huge, very successful nonprofit where the ED is totally still there and she’s writing all their funding proposals very successfully. I don’t think I could have I don’t think I could have done that.

Elizabeth: It gets confusing for those who are there.

Annie: I think so, oh, yes. You know, and there might be even less, you know, pleasant words than confusing. Annoying.

Elizabeth: Somebody goes a little bit deeper and you may not have an answer for this, but I’m going to throw it out there anyway. Were there any particular structures or practices that you did put in place that mattered the most once you stepped away. Things that you can look to, point to, and say, “That helped.” And so those that might be helpful or a priority for organizations that are about to go through this or have an abrupt leadership change, that these are little pieces that when they’re there, it really helps.

Annie: I think it’s really important … to build it. It sounds so lame. But, anyway, to build in real check ins, constantly. And we had worked for years with an advisor named Anne Sutherland, who taught us a way of doing meetings and that was a really important help, too. Where you really you talk about, this is the purpose of this particular meeting. These are our hopes and fears. This is so it’s really making sure that every single time that you’re having one of those meetings as you go through this process that you’re taking the time to go deep and ask that you’re not just get being very busy – because you are very busy too, so you can end up just being busy – and losing track of that this is a transition for everybody and transitions are hard and are complex, anyway. So I think that was incredibly important. It was incredibly important to keep track of it, I guess, to stay conscious that we’re doing this thing and we’re doing it together. And everybody will have feelings in it.

It’s still a very human process. And you can suddenly realize you’ve really upset somebody or you’ve miscommunicated something. And that’s … all of that work is vital. That’s why therapists [are] really good in this.

Elizabeth: I think another thing that would resonate widely is the tension. The old world, new world tension, the intergenerational thing, and navigating that. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more … Because many of us who are leading organizations are closer to that end of the … We’re definitely part of the old world. And, I think that there is often a gap of understanding, appreciation, all kinds of stuff that happens. And you’ve just been through this.

If you want to share a couple more reflections.

Annie: And I think that part’s incredible. It’s incredibly hard because maybe everybody isn’t like that, but instinctively you go … You go, well, “Your way is wrong.” Or it’s like, “How do you not know the important things I know?” And I would like to say it hurts your feelings.I am a Boomer. I’m way older than you.  [With] that, “Okay, Boomer,”  you suddenly realize you’re being exactly like that. You’re being a kind of know-it-all. We were so great and we knew everything, and we made all this happen. And that you might not be right, or it might be that you know that the change is really needed.

So there, there were and are huge generational differences. And for me, trying to be conscious of that and sometimes you have to shut up and sometimes you have to recognize that the old way wasn’t perfect for one thing. And it’s very hard because I’m not only a control freak, but, you know, pretty judgmental. You go, “This isn’t this isn’t the way to do it.”

But part of me, partly because I had a therapist, it was it was really, really important to keep checking in and go. Just a second. Are you just pushing against this because it’s not your way? And is there a possibility, even though you’re really uncomfortable with this, that actually it is the change that’s needed.

So I’ll take network building as an example, which I feel like all the next generations, they care about that really, really a lot. And that never occurred to me as a thing. But I think maybe that’s really important and that actually it is the thing that will make the change happen.

I had an incredible conversation with therapist once about, well, “What was a win?” And I went, oh, I don’t think we ever thought about winning. And I that was another kind of … It was like a different mindset. So what’s hard with those things is even if you think they’re wrong, even if you go, “I totally, totally disagree with this.” You have to shut up and understand that as the older generation, this is part of the let it go.

You have to just let it go. And if it’s getting too upsetting, you have to step back. That’s why I literally went, I’m not going to go to these meetings about this anymore. And you just have to. You do have to get out of the way. And you have to know in your heart of hearts, this might be way better, and you could be wrong in the things you’ve always assumed.

It’s hard, but it’s really necessary. And there was a lot of people dumping on Millennials and people like nuh, whatever they do. But, you know, we’ve obviously not done that good job at running the world. So again, that part’s hard. Really important and really important to recognize, though, again, really hard. This may be a generational thing.

This may not be just a clash of ideas. This is, “You are from a different generation.” It’s amazing working – I mean, not everybody’s younger than me – but working with all younger people. And I love working, I mean, I really love working [with] the students. So I like, you know, working with it’s it’s. Yeah, it’s it’s good for you, but it’s, it’s again, it’s not easy and you have to be willing to if you’re getting too, upset, just shut up and get out of the meeting.

Elizabeth: So this brings us to three minutes. You have one last question. Yeah. Hindsight is 2020. What would you have done differently?

Annie: I think I would have recognized more at the beginning that it was going to be hard. I think that I would have … We did the best that we could. Sometimes I think, oh, God, I should have read all those books on succession planning and followed all the steps. Because there were some things where you went. Oh, maybe you should have done that. There was some board work you brought up that maybe that could have been better and more inclusive.

But you only know what you know afterwards. … I think it could have been a little bit more, sort of, intentional in the process. Sometimes I’m a messy person, and I let it, you know … It was a bit messy, but I think for the most part, we all survived.

Elizabeth: Well, I think you did more than survive. I think you might have thrived.

Annie: Yeah. No, I think I think we did.

Elizabeth: And I think that the organization itself is going to thrive. And that’s really amazing. And it’s going to thrive in a different way. It’s going to be a different organization. That was before. Well, and so that’s actually the answer to the second part of that question, which was what makes succession planning a success.

And I think it’s that the organization is positioned to thrive and just take everything forward with great confidence and capacity.

Annie, I have so much respect for what you have contributed to public education, to our sector, to the work, and to every student in Ontario. I’m grateful for your leadership, and I’m grateful for your humility and willingness to sit down and talk about all of this messiness, which is part of it.

So thank you. Thank you very much.

Annie: Thank you for inviting me to do this. It was a great learning process for me to kind of rethink it. So it was therapeutic almost. Absolutely. It was.